Relax people

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

Can't a girl put in her two cents without getting her head chopped off?  It was merely a suggestion, an idea, a thought.  I don't really care one way or the other if you agree or disagree.  I simply wanted to put it out there.

How much of a "community" do we really have if we  attack each other over stupid things.  Sad.

Comments

[fireheart.livejournal.com]

*hug*
I thought it was a good idea.

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

Lol, thank you. Can I get that hug in person next weekend?

[fireheart.livejournal.com]

What a silly question. Of course you can get as many hugs as you like! I'm all about the hugs. I need a few myself.

*HUG*

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

aww, lol, you've got a deal. Hugs it is.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Wow, I wish I'd seen the attacks before they were all deleted. I miss that sort of thing all the time. :(

[thespian.livejournal.com]

the attacks weren't deleted. The person in question just thinks that myself and bridgetminerva were attacking her because we explained why her suggestion (which has been considered in the past) wasn't workable.

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

No, that's not why and thanks for speaking for me.

[fibro-witch.livejournal.com]

It is not the explanation, it's the language you used that was imposing. And, to the OP attacking. Now your both offended because the OP did not see what you meant, only what you said.

[bridgetminerva.livejournal.com]

There is no community if debate or conversation can not be tolerated. I asked you before and Now I am asking you again:
Why do you think you were attacked?

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

And I replied before. Did you not see my reply? And I do see what you mean about debate, however I point out again that I was merely trying to make a suggestion to Arisia staff, not get into a debate.

[bridgetminerva.livejournal.com]

It must have crossed in between the browser refresh and this. I did see your reply but in it you said "It's not just you" Which sounds like you think I was attaching. When I saw this post I thought you had ceased to follow-up on the other post. Sorry for not being thorough.

One way to disable debate would be to disable comment or to email Staff at arisia dot org.

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

Well generally I hate disabling comments and whatnot. I think it's the writer in me fearing censorship. But indeed next time I will e-mail the satff instead!

Well I feel,

[fibro-witch.livejournal.com]

Um, at the risk of being the victim of that first fist fight. Your still attacking the OP.

"I asked you before and Now I am asking you again:" all that is missing is a slap in the face. The use of the personal pronoun twice and the capital letter on the time stamp (now) are all language used to show that the comments were not tolerated. You are not asking the OP why she felt attacked, your telling the OP. That sentence is threatening, it is not possible to say it in anything other than a threatening manner.

While both of you did talk about why you, and the con found the suggestion to be unworkable, you both did so in language that was less explaining, than imposing your viewpoint.

Re: Well I feel,

[thespian.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but I actually feel that this post was *far* more 'attacky' (ok, it's late) than anything that happened in the original thread. Rather than dealing with any of the people she felt were attacking her, she attacked back there, *then* posted this in which she takes a rather passive aggressive stance of outraged innocence, getting people to offer her hugs somewhere where they won't see the initial thread in which she lost her temper and started yelling at people long before anyone else did.

This just reads serious drama, and I'm out. I'll get enough next week.

Re: Well I feel,

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, whom did I yell at? And that person would have hugged me no matter what, not that it's any of your business. You are the one initially who couldn't leave well enough alone Mr. Last Word. And anyone can see the initial thread.

Re: Well I feel,

[volta]

Indeed, we can. I have just read through that post and all of the comments currently visible, and I do not see anyone attacking you. What I do see is people involved with Arisia saying that your idea has been considered, that it is not a workable idea for Arisia, and going on to explain some of the reasons why. Instead of doing the right thing and thanking these people for taking the time to consider your suggestion and explain the situation to you, you accuse them of attacking you.

You are way out of line here.

Re: Well I feel,

[bridgetminerva.livejournal.com]

Excuse me, What is an OP? Original poster? I am not attacking her. We were conversing. She posted a question/desire. I posted a reply. She responded. I asked for data. She supplied it. I responded, she responded. We both learned.

I am deeply offended by accusation that I would engage in a fist fight with you. Is it possible you meant this reply to be under a different thread? Also you are implying I would slap someone. What is it with these physical threats?

That sentence you are referring to was not the question. The one after it is the question. The sentence was a statement acknowledging my initial question and a reiteration of it here. One was in the old post and the other was in this newer post.

I explained it as best I could. I attempted to do so with an example. I was not imposing my view point so much as explaining it. Someone else did so after it. If I had not been accused of attacking I would have only followed up if she asked additional information or someone else followed up my post. But she did accuse me (and still does although mitigated somewhat). And now you are dissecting my use of written language as a tool of my personal domination of her and to an extent you.

Your take on this is very baffling to me.

Re: Well I feel,

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

I didn't realize I was accusing you of anything and I do apologize if you took it that way. This really is getting quite out of hand.

Re: Well I feel,

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Yeah!

[gingicat]

You are a friend of people I care about, so I'm going to try really hard to say this without it sounding like an attack. But you are accusing two people very dear to me of starting a fistfight when they were simply explaining policy. Which policy, I might add, makes it possible for me to simply walk in and buy a day membership for Sunday if my two kids under three are behaving themselves, which is never guaranteed. (I've been Staff and Program Participant in pre-kid years, and not attended in post-kid years.)

Why, please, are you and Octoberland taking explanations as attacks?

[fibro-witch.livejournal.com]

Your correct in wondering what kind of a community we have. I have often wondered the very same thing. At first I thought it was stress from the con, but in the past year I have realized there is an undercurrent of hostility in every thing Arisia does.

I continue to wonder when the first fist fight will break out.

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

god I hope it doesn't come to that. Do you really think it's particular to Arisia? I have no idea since I'm not usually behind the scenes. I guess one factor could be that most fen do lack social skills. And I really don't mean that offensively. We are often I think also very passionate people, passionate in our beliefs. But at the same time we seem to not be able to tolerate differences within our own community which is ironic to me considering that most of the world shuns us.

[fibro-witch.livejournal.com]

I think it is a little bit of several things. I do not believe fen in general lack social skills, because many of us manage to function in the real world quite well. I don't know about the passionate, mayhap possessive would be the term I would use. In a way, that is good, any volunteer run organization would not last all that long if it's members were not possessive of it's goals. However...

But that is for the post I will make in about 21 days.

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

21 days?

[jasra]

I suspect she's waiting for the con to be over and it to be time for the debrief.

[scruffycritter.livejournal.com]

I have realized there is an undercurrent of hostility in every thing Arisia does.

No, no attacking there. None at all.

FYI: I'm not part of the organization that runs Arisia.

[paradoox.livejournal.com]

People may be mistaking lack of sleep and harriedness for hostility and intentional snarkiness. I'm not sure how to solve that problem. I've tried to draft posts and not send them for 24 hours to think about them, but that takes too long and too much changes in 24 hours.

[hnybny.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I've been asking for years why we couldn't do one day pre-pays. I posted my suggestion on the main thread. Lets see what kind of response it gets.

[paradoox.livejournal.com]

Every Satuday one day we sell is one less full weekend we can sell. The Saturday one day price is $40. If you feel that strongly about it, you can always buy a full weekend at the $40 (or lower) price in advance. Arisia needs to budget also. There is a way to do what you want, just not in January. If people want to plan ahead for Saturday one days, they will need to plan further ahead. (Or if you really don't like this, join the Arisia Corporation and try to change things ...)

[hnybny.livejournal.com]

I don't go Saturday, I go Friday. Obviously, that's half the weekend membership price.

[nohwhere-man.livejournal.com]

Boy, much ado about almost nothing. I tried to read the entirety of both threads, and I don't see any "attacks" at all. Maybe some strong language, and maybe one writer dismissed the ideas of another, but nobody said "yo momma" or anything like that.

One person had an idea. A few thought it was a good idea. Some others tried to explain why it's not workable. Did I miss something? When one person can't disconnect the idea from holder of the idea, little meaningful discussion can happen.

That aside, this is a nice place to chat about things, but it's not a good one for communicating with the Arisia committee; there are plenty of email addreses on the web site for that. If you, Gentle Reader, wants to actually affect the way Arisia corp does things, writing directly to them will get much closer that random discussions. You could even join the corporation and directly influence policy.

FWIW, I'm not a member of the arisia corp, but know quite a few of them, and have been doing 20+ volunteer/staff hours at the con for the past 15 years. I know bridgetminerva actively participates. Anyone else?

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

Well you probably misses it since these have become so long but I'm not interested in changing policy and believe me next time I will simply send out an e-mail.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

I don't think nowhere_man missed it because the threads were too long, but because there weren't attacks. It's possible that you interpreted disagreement as attacks. Would you prefer people only respond if they agree? Or is there a certain set of words you'd prefer they use to disagree? Would you mind, if that's the case, giving an example?

If you were telling people, "No, this is why we don't do it that way," and didn't want to come off as attacking them, how would you say it? It's possible that people here could learn from you in that way.

[octoberland.livejournal.com]

I wasn't referring to attacks, I was referring to this comment he made "If you, Gentle Reader, wants to actually affect the way Arisia corp does things, writing directly to them will get much closer that random discussions. You could even join the corporation and directly influence policy"

I had said earlier to Bridget that I wasn't trying to change anything, just trying to make a suggestion.

And to respond to your last part to the best of my knowledge thespian is not part of Arisia staff. He was not trying to explain to me why things weren't done that way, but why he thought they shouldn't be done that way. There is a difference.

Again, the whole point I am trying to make now is that this is ridiculous. One person's innocently meant suggestion should not lead to this much argument and strife.

[volta]

And to respond to your last part to the best of my knowledge thespian is not part of Arisia staff. He was not trying to explain to me why things weren't done that way, but why he thought they shouldn't be done that way. There is a difference.

Aside from simply recognizing the name as somebody regularly involved with Arisia, a couple of quick google searches lead me to believe that while she may or may not be part of the Arisia staff this year, she does have some experience and understanding with how Arisia is run.

[nohwhere-man.livejournal.com]

(BTW, I -did- read the entire thing before I posted anything. It's usually a good idea, although postings can "cross in the mail".)

"wasn't trying to change anything, just trying to make a suggestion."

Let's examine this statement, regardless of who made it. If one is not trying to change something, such as a standing policy, why make a suggestion that seems to counter that policy, if not to affect it somehow? Further, why continue to restate that suggestion in the face of rational argument against it's implementation, without addressing those points? I mean, I could suggest to Trader Joe's that they stay open until midnight, but when the manager says "no" and explains the cost of extra wages/etc vs. probably income, all my insistence that it's only a suggestion isn't going to change the fact that it's not going to happen.

In the immediate case, yes, it is a suggestion. The concept has also has been much discussed previously by the convention organizers and decided against. At least one person has presented rational arguments about why it isn't workable*. Anyone can still make this suggestion, and anyone can say "if won't work/happen because of bla bla bla".

* not that "it's a bad suggestion"

Have I missed anything?

(I wasn't thinking of Thesbian.)

[dda.livejournal.com]

I've been actively participating in Arisia for the last few years, at least.

That aside, this is a nice place to chat about things, but it's not a good one for communicating with the Arisia committee.

Most of what actually gets posted here is the committee communicating with those interested in the con; it is a good way (although not the only way, of course) to reach quite a few people with relatively timely information (e.g. "the hotel is filling up" or "con rates go up next week").

FYI ...

[paradoox.livejournal.com]

There are at least two if not more senior members of the committee that regularly read this. In fact, I think there are at least two assistant conchairs that regularly read this.

When something important comes up, it gets forwarded as appropriate (eboard, conchair, etc.)

[tisiphone.livejournal.com]

If you don't care if people agree or disagree, why do you interpret disagreement as attack?

[londo.livejournal.com]

If you reply to every comment that disagrees with you in an increasingly hysterical tone, it's going to become much easier to interpret the responses as attacks.

[wildcard9.livejournal.com]

I came in late to the discussion. I agree it was a good question, one other people probably wondered about. I am very surprised at the amount of discussion it generated, and how heated it got.